The topic is "Good lambda / afr for diesel"
you are going away from the topic.

Let me explain two answers at once:

cstefan wrote:So lets supose that i calculate the smoke map from ground 0, i put the afr i want and blabla bla, then i will set the TL far above smoke values, and do the log in 4th gear then i set the tl based on these values, will be an acceptable work?

Smoking car is not acceptable work. Period. Acceptable work, and only right work is max power without the smoke.
Who wants smoking car on the road? I do not know how is in Portugal but in most countries you get stopped by the Police and you go to MOT,
they take your car out of the road.

kinetic wrote:...For power tuning my rule is, if u don't see smoke, there is definitely more power to be had.

That is your rule. You are throwing diesel threw the exhaust - that's your black smoke,
you are providing only smoke no power, and choking the engine and people around.
With smoke you are increasing your consumption and not the power, If you do it correct way you will achieve more power without smoke than you do with smoke.

I heard about that myth on youtube - topic something like "Portugal tune", a lot of black smoke...But it is busted

yes you are wright, but the best company of chiptuning here in portugal have reputation of max power no smoke :P btw with a smooth launch control you have advantage with the police(smoke and noise down at 2300rpm) :lol:

ecuedit wrote:The topic is "Good lambda / afr for diesel"
you are going away from the topic.

That is your rule. You are throwing diesel threw the exhaust - that's your black smoke,
you are providing only smoke no power, and choking the engine and people around.
With smoke you are increasing your consumption and not the power, If you do it correct way you will achieve more power without smoke than you do with smoke.

I heard about that myth on youtube - topic something like "Portugal tune", a lot of black smoke...But it is busted

+1 on this. The only reason you see 1000hp+ tractors smoking is they simply cant get the boost from the turbo to supply enough air fast enough.

But its not completely wasted fuel.
Some of it will add to the power as the fuel burn lean in some areas and rich in others depending on how well its mixed.
But its generally rapidly diminishing return.
So no point IMO.

If you smoke... you need a bigger turbo, more boost or less fuel.
Anything else is a bodge.

For the same MAP there is about a 15% increase in MAF at winter over summer.
So you have to allow for the same AFR you have to allow for the 15% extra fueling.

Best time to tune the car is the middle of winter as it wil make the most power for the same AFR and go bang :wtf: :thumbup:

I would just like to add that the engine will naturally produce 575mg minimum in a 2.2.
So you dont have to worry about any boost until you request 35mg+ @ 17:1.

here is a good example of a tdi "without" train style smoke and 3xxps(now i think it haves about 4xxps)

ecuedit wrote:The topic is "Good lambda / afr for diesel"
you are going away from the topic.

Let me explain two answers at once:

cstefan wrote:So lets supose that i calculate the smoke map from ground 0, i put the afr i want and blabla bla, then i will set the TL far above smoke values, and do the log in 4th gear then i set the tl based on these values, will be an acceptable work?

Smoking car is not acceptable work. Period. Acceptable work, and only right work is max power without the smoke.
Who wants smoking car on the road? I do not know how is in Portugal but in most countries you get stopped by the Police and you go to MOT,
they take your car out of the road.

kinetic wrote:...For power tuning my rule is, if u don't see smoke, there is definitely more power to be had.

That is your rule. You are throwing diesel threw the exhaust - that's your black smoke,
you are providing only smoke no power, and choking the engine and people around.
With smoke you are increasing your consumption and not the power, If you do it correct way you will achieve more power without smoke than you do with smoke.

I heard about that myth on youtube - topic something like "Portugal tune", a lot of black smoke...But it is busted

Rent a dyno for one hour and start tuning. Increase duration progressively until what u "think" is the best stoich for smokeless power. After this point keep increasing opening time without altering requested boost, do it till u dont have any power gain. Flash previous file and test on the road (mind the black cloud behind), ull b amazed how power still increased after first smoke appeared.
I know we have a lot of chip butchers over here, a LOT, but make no mistake, we also have some of the most powerful diesel preparations around. Hardcore tuning can b fun ;)

He lowered this time, but i cant find the video. Still very impressive for 400m with a PD130 base.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7I5zPFp ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYw-6r2_ ... re=related

Hi,

sure you can make more power with smoke, but you will not do your turbo much good with it, for example. Diesel does burn with smoke if you burn it at perfect stoichiometric values, that's why you use an excess of air/leaner than stoichiometric AFR in modern diesels to make them smoke-free, it's just a trade-off.

Have you calculated at what speed a turbo blade is spinning at ~150k rpm? Depending on size, that's over Mach 1 on the outside of the turbine - now imagine that the black cloud you see coming out of the exhaust is not just funny looking air, but actually very very many tiny particles (soot) that just struck your turbo blades at speeds over Mach 1.

Now imagine how sanding paper works and what this will do to a finely balanced turbine wheel over time.

Also, the soot makes VNT turbos stick (the vane actuators), which is a surefire way to kill a perfectly good turbo (I'm speaking from experience here).

So, sure, if you're willing to take that risk to seriously shorten your turbo's lifespan (among others), yes, you can make more power with a lot of smoke.

But is this good tuning? I think that's something you have to answer for yourself - for me, that's a definite no. It is a tune that can be used for quarter mile runs in places where people don't care about the black cloud. If you did that on a drag strip here, you wouldn't get as much applause...

Regards

You talk well my friend, my thoughts exactly. It wasnt an arguement on being a good remap, because it´s about the opposite, and yes obvioustly these are turbo killer tunes no doubt. Just making the remark that max power does not always come from remaping for stoich, u hear that so many times and not really true.
Here its the opposite, people believe smoke = power, wich is idiotic. But than again, what do we know, most of us out here just throw every iq map over the roof along with every limiter u can find, request 3000mbar from 2000rpm on (with stock 051c) and prey it wont break before client pays. If it breaks after a week u just tell him turbo was discalibrated from the start :clap:
Scary hun? Well, i just live here :shh:

nexus665 very well said.

It's old topic but why create new one when there is already one.
All i wanted to say that people looks like dont understand AFR maps. They called Smoke Limiting maps because it's a LIMITING maps.

You can alter smoke map table and put AFR of 1 (not lambda 1 but afr) and car will be able to not smoke.
AFR of 17 is stupid idea based on nothing. I do have Alfa romeo 159, previously had Alfa 156 2.4 129Kw. 156 AFR table on average was 15. 159 alfa have higher afr average of ~ 17. And it's because of 159 have dpf. And also drives like slow sluggish tank compared to 156 2.4 alfa.

Any tuner have to ask themselves or client - how fast you want to inject high amount of fuel. If you want to tune car so it will be sluggish - good use high afr of 18 and higher. This just will make ecu to lower IQ while waiting on AIR. THAT'S IT. that's the solo purpose of AFR table. If you have enough air more then needed - AFR table is not used... because there is nothing to limit.

So to summarize - a little bit of smoke when you flooring - is normal. Its hard to tune stock car to feel more responsive without allowing to inject more fuel quicker, and more fuel requires more air, but what if there is no air at that moment? so need to lower AFR. And after some seconds car will have plenty of air so no smoke.

When people say - higher AFR = better economy -yes, because you just wont be able to inject more fuel at lower rpm quick enough.
Bad tunes s when car at highest load have shitty afr and car smokes continuously. Usually it's not because of AFR but because of idiots altering Injection times to be able to inject more fuel and car dont even realize the addition of fuel. All my seen cars in stock maps have afr less then 14, some less then 13 in low rpm. It's normal if you want responsive car.