Shooting wrote:Bulletpointing everything, what are you 6..... ffs
look, you clearly just want everything on the cheap and it annoys you, we get it.
If you genuinly believe it doesn't take millions to develop these tools then
produce your own! .. it'll take up years of your life and break your wallet and then the
Chinese producers can rip it off... but hey it'll be a good lesson for you.... ;)
I build prototypes and have worked in the industry for years, if it was this simple
I'd be a rich man by now. Seriously, you clearly don't understand R&D because anyone
actually in the industry knows.
And to finish, "FRY" is a industry standard term to define a blown circuit, as defined by Oxford English dictionary.
but of course you already knew this lol .. you seem to miss most points here..

wbr

Umm, no, it's just your "Rich West" perspective view. There are other countries on this planet, you know, where R&D can get you 20x as much bang for your buck.

A "blown circuit" is "fried", yes, but a programmer interface has no power over damaging MOS circuits, it can't just put +60V over a +5V line, there are no circuits like that in the ECU. Most likely you have meant "bricking the unit", which relates to non-functioning firmware and is recoverable by programming proper firmware by a direct method.

I don't want "everything on the cheap", quite the contrary, I'd pay for something that ACTUALLY WORKS. I have paid only too much for many original systems in my life, that are no better than an expensive paperweight. God knows how many years I spent just by installing Windows95... and what for?

For example: ECM titanium gives me 5, wrongly labeled maps, out of about 200 available in the ECU, none of the 1800 1-dimensional variables, and asks about 1 euro per file save (checksum recalculation). Is it worth it? Definitely not. Would I pay 5 euros if it had at least 50% of the ECU variables? Definitely! If it had all? I'd pay easily 20 euros for one edited, saved file! For many engines, the ECM Titanium is a pure ripoff. Would I pay 50 euros for a pinpoint accurate description file of my ECU firmware? Definitely YES!!

But as it is, ECM Titanium offers me nothing of any value. As an example, I'd like to correct the water heater operation at low temperatures and command it not to deplete the battery as much as in the original. Where do I do that?

The solution all the sellers of expensive HW and SW tools tell me to do is that I ALONE have to reverse-engineer that and that I HAVE TO PAY THEM for the privilege of doing so! That is perverse. I should be paying them for doing that for me, not paying for them to tell me to go fish.

I want to give money to the experts, not to some would-be wannabees.

"A "blown circuit" is "fried", yes, but a programmer interface has no power over damaging MOS circuits, it can't just put +60V over a +5V line, there are no circuits like that in the ECU. Most likely you have meant "bricking the unit", which relates to non-functioning firmware and is recoverable by programming proper firmware by a direct method."

Mate, you are sooo wrong here, a tool has 12v lines direct from the battery, best you pick up a book.

"I don't want "everything on the cheap", quite the contrary, I'd pay for something that ACTUALLY WORKS"

You get what you pay for, this is the point you are missing, and the point we're making!
Chinese tools don't work properly.......

"But as it is, ECM Titanium offers me nothing of any value. As an example, I'd like to correct the water heater operation at low temperatures and command it not to deplete the battery as much as in the original. Where do I do that?"

Again using Cracked software! stolen software does not give support!
If you had a Genuine copy support would give you your answer!

Just because you don't understand it doesn't make you right......

wbr

I still think we're at risk of going OTT with what is quite a simple concept (even if hard to swallow)

1) clone tools will give a constant stream of problems for a variety of cars. Mileage may vary but most clones will fault on something. Problematic or inconsistent operation is within their nature and will be on the trailing edge of technology capabilities and bug fixes - this will never change.


2) genuine tools will work with (almost) no problems. Not fault free, but on the rare instance you do you're an email and a short wait to have a fix coming.
Can argue this until the cows come home but ultimately it will all boil down to chosing whether you operate within (1) or (2).

The most constructive advice is simple, if oneself is getting tired of the disadvantages of (1) then make constructive steps to transition to (2).

Arguing will not get access to better tools, it will only irritate an already unsatisfactory situation. I did suggest a half way house (borrowing a tool or giving beer tokens for access to one), I reiterate this as I don't think its that far fetched an idea.

Shooting wrote:

"A "blown circuit" is "fried", yes, but a programmer interface has no power over damaging MOS circuits, it can't just put +60V over a +5V line, there are no circuits like that in the ECU. Most likely you have meant "bricking the unit", which relates to non-functioning firmware and is recoverable by programming proper firmware by a direct method."

Mate, you are sooo wrong here, a tool has 12v lines direct from the battery, best you pick up a book.

"I don't want "everything on the cheap", quite the contrary, I'd pay for something that ACTUALLY WORKS"

You get what you pay for, this is the point you are missing, and the point we're making!
Chinese tools don't work properly.......

"But as it is, ECM Titanium offers me nothing of any value. As an example, I'd like to correct the water heater operation at low temperatures and command it not to deplete the battery as much as in the original. Where do I do that?"

Again using Cracked software! stolen software does not give support!
If you had a Genuine copy support would give you your answer!

Just because you don't understand it doesn't make you right......

wbr

I never, for a second, talked about anything cloned or stolen software. You did.
"If you had a Genuine copy support would give you your answer!"
Give me the PROOF, and I'll send them the 180 euros they're asking.
I want the FULL support for EDC15C7, all the variables and none less.

Connecting +12V via a 4k7 resistor is anything but direct.

How many times I have to explain that "originals" don't work properly as well?
Say, Windows 10.

Dakta wrote:I still think we're at risk of going OTT with what is quite a simple concept (even if hard to swallow)

1) clone tools will give a constant stream of problems for a variety of cars.
2) genuine tools will work with (almost) no problems. Not fault free, ...

I'm not talking about clones. This electronics in general. As you said, there are many occasions both a cloned and "original" will either perform or fail to perform. That means the originals are far from perfect, no matter how much you pay for it. And the services: The services you can expect for an amount between 300 to 3000 euros are: barely able to read and write to the ECU. Just to view/edit some code, without a clue of what you are about to do: 900 euros.

Those services are not services, but a disservice. When you go to a restaurant you expect freshly cooked meal, not some ingredients to which you have to bring your own utensils and even a propane tank to cook on.

The point is that you are not getting a bang for your buck, no matter how much you are going to pay, and you are going to pay with your time dearly anyway! How many of the chinese tool owners do you really think do anything useful with those? I've seen 5 tools at two owners and neither of the two did much. But not because of the tools not working! But because the tools by themselves do very little, even with Lexia installed, for example.

Some tools have a very frustrating design, like WinOLS. That won't change whether you paid for it 3000 euros or were given it from the company as a present, or you are using a super duper hacking skills of yours.

And when somebody says that ECU firmware mod must be an adventure, an exciting road of discovery, well, where is the difference of using the exact same adventure of installing a booby-trapped crack? (If there is such a thing.) You are still doing unnecessary work of inventing the same wheel as do millions of others.

We are still facing a fact that there are thousands of ECU versions for hundreds of millions of cars, and any modifications of the ECUs is bordering on illegal, anyway. And actually IS illegal in California, for example. Yet, some people will still see it as a kind of digital nirvana, despite the fact that...

...any useful and reasonably complete ECU documentation AND a DAMOS-like EPROM desciption AND a useful and simple read and write tool is available for only a tiny fraction of cars and engines out there, much of the available knowledge is driven by myth, legends and experimentation, mostly suggesting illegal and harmful changes to the ECU tables. (Like editing the injector callibration, instead of allowing more programmed air or fuel, of changing timing, pressure rise characteristics and so on.) Prolonged injection at low pressures will invariably lead to huge, carginogenic clouds of black soot in a dense traffic, without providing any noticeable acceleration benefits. I have seen too many cars on the road doing that, without the cars accelerating any faster than a slug.


If I sell 4 cars and send someone the money for the programming tools, do you think any of that will change?
No, the software and hardware tools will remain just as inefficient and lame as they ever were and the tuning habits just as harmful. Because humans will prefer feelings, legends, superstition and the desire to believe in magic than read manuals and understand technology. Poor little facts will always draw the short straw.


P.S. Did you know that by editing the injector callibration table and add impulse length, any fuel injection will be affected? That includes the small fuel injection for the catalyst, in a bad tune, that one will be easily 3-4 times larger (or even more!). The turbo thermal control will be dysfunctional as well. I hope it isn't surprising that exactly this edit is what the bad ECM Titanium encourages you to do, and even if I sent them my money, they would NOT remove this function from all of their profiles, as they should.
P.P.S. We're doomed.

I hope you'll forgive the long post :\

I never, for a second, talked about anything cloned or stolen software. You did.
"If you had a Genuine copy support would give you your answer!"
Give me the PROOF, and I'll send them the 180 euros they're asking.
I want the FULL support for EDC15C7, all the variables and none less.

Connecting +12V via a 4k7 resistor is anything but direct.

How many times I have to explain that "originals" don't work properly as well?
Say, Windows 10.

Eh hum, you did by proxy, there is only genuine or cracked, unless you know better lol
you said you were using ECM so if it's NOT genuine then it's stolen! fact! as it's very old and
no free version exists to play with, only purchased version.

"I want the FULL support for EDC15C7, all the variables and none less."

You just want the moon on a stick ffs
you want cheap/free software and free tools and you want everyone else to pay for it...
If you bought the software you'd get full support end of!

Give me the PROOF, and I'll send them the 180 euros they're asking.
I want the FULL support for EDC15C7, all the variables and none less.

Just ask them ffs, if you send an email and they'll tell you direct,
WinOLS with damos easily does this no fuss and simply without any problem.

All you do is bitch and moan, drop the attitude and people will help you...

wbr

That means the originals are far from perfect

It depends on perspective and how sturbborn we feel like being. Personally I'd agree that they aren't perfect, but completely disagree with the use of the word 'far from'. I cannot remember my last tool programming error. I've had them but it's distant memory and I use the day in, day out.

On a timeline of 1 to 100, 1 being crap and 100 being perfect, a clone tool would be 8, and most genuine tools would be about 97. If you look at the genuine tool from only ever having a genuine tool you'd think you'd got something pretty good but not infallible, if you looked at the genuine tool from a clone-owners perspective it would probably look pretty darn perfect. Please note I'm taking care not to say genuine tools are perfect, because they are not, but there's a smaller gap between a genuine tool and perfect compared to a clone tool an

Like I said there's no point arguing the toss over it, if you don't buy into genuine hardware, and you don't have to, working around tool problems will be a focal point of your life. For the rest, it will not.

Is there a problem with windows 10? I use it in the production environment.

Anyway, ultimately to play you got to pay, if you find a way to avoid paying it'l probably go wrong somewhere. If anyone knows how to cheat these basics workings of the industry let me know on a postcard because ive been re-investing personal savings and scraping together a collection of tools for years.

An example of what you get with original tools from a multi-billion company that shipped billions and billions of processors, so you would assume they must be good at programming them...?

https://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/b ... -The-agony

But nah, they are full of nasty bugs, just like the BOSCH firmware.

I do not own any programming cable yet, etc... I downloaded some demos, like the WinOLS, and... I was surprised the WinOLS loves to overwrite related variables and tables just by watching them. Not cool, Jerry! Man's garage is his castle!

As far as the cloned tools go: ya, things can go wrong, but I have to object to replacing FACTS with emotion and blind faith!
If somebody has an objection to a part, schematics or layout of one clone or another, please, try to care without right away yelling. I want to see the offending piece. Why? Because I have seen clones, which weren't clones at all, they were just simple and plain 100% originals. Unauthorized originals. With completely nothing "to fry" the ECU, especially this being the MPPS, which has no way of frying the ECU.

The problems with Windows 10 are simple, it does whatever it decides to do, without ever asking me, and at any time I find inappropriate, with no opt-out. There are nearly zero desktop settings, no "show desktop" button, minimizing windows is... some programs don't do that, etc. I have no possibility of changing the UI to an industrial look like I had in Win7, for example. The spamming of the announcer and the need for an antivirus is a real bother. Worse than a sick infant. What happened after I connected it to an external monitor was a Rocky Horror show. 4-inch supersized program icons. Only restart helped.

Did I mention that the Windows10, decided without ever asking for a permission, to upgrade the whole operating system? It needed just about 20 gigabytes extra to do that.

OK, so when the multi-billion companies do that, how much more unfinished and beta-version some of these "original tools" then must be! What some of these original tools do is that they get you to a supermarket, and that's fine, but you are blind, deaf and without money. A tricky situation.

Some people would call that "don't work".

But when we are at that self-righteous blame game, the only way of getting a full DAMOS-mapped file is by stealing the intellectual property of, for example: Bosch/Opel who made the source code with all the descriptors. It's, which pirates do you prefer more, those that stole from the "criminal masterminds", or those who stole from the burglars, or the lowly thieves who stole from all three?

It's more than just black&white, it's more like, shades of grey. 50 shades of gray. You are either the masochist or the sadist in this ECU game, you either like it, being the masochist or the sadist or not. It's not an easy game or decidedly clear what is going on, including the BOSCH and car makers cheating on you. BOSCH clearly states in all their promotional materials that my high pressure pump is fully 1600-bar capable and so are the injectors. Despite of that, there is a map that limits the pressure at all RPM to some very, very, very low levels. 500-bar, for example. Who to trust less? The monster or the monster claiming not to be that monster? The US authorities have that look at VW, and yet, the rules broken wer broken by the BOSCH company, just read the EDC15C Funkcionsbescreibing and see for yourself that the ECU decides to break emission standards at some external conditions, even if it's literally illegal. Renault, for example. The test conditions were set at 22°C +-5C. And guess what? The NOx reduction system was/is activated only exactly between 17°C to 27°C. They claimed it was because it could be damaged at too low or too high temperatures, ahem. BOSCH designed it that way, so it would cheat, as programmmed.

Not to mention what nonsense I saw in the EDC15C !!!

Film, literature and other references are purely intentional.

You are clearly single......
Not one of your so called facts is correct, suggest you buy a book or two.
example:
Any tool connected to OBD2 can "FRY" an ecu, +12v lines come from the battery directly to the distribution
panel where a feed is taken directly to power the OBD port, 2 -12v straps too., this is FACT!
Feeds from OBD port go directly to the ECU K-Lines and CAN lines (Depending on the model)
and these lines control funtions within the ecu, got it so far?
ANY short in a dodgy chineese tool CAN feed +12v down the signal feeds, maybe I'm going too fast for you....
You seem to miss this point even after being told several times!!!
CAN/K-Line tracks within the ECU cannot withstand the Amperage of a power feed and the copper
lines quite simply melt, or "FRY" as they very fine and not designed to take voltage!

And if you don't like Windows10 use something else ffs.....
And how can you even comment if as you say "I do not own any programming cable yet"
you loose all moral high ground instantly!
I think this Forum is not for you....

I have not read this thread fully....but i will later....

I only want to say that chinese men send us crapp that looks like original Kess v2. In blogs they tell that things work and i found often it is even copied from somewhere else...

and in reality nothing works. i can say that OBD2 write with my edc17c46 does not work at all! with any ksuite version from 2.08 to 2.33 and original file! always error!!!!