Too much SOI and EOI edc15c2 Pug406

by **ecuedit** » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:55 am

sparco wrote:@jurebv; all you need is a datalog with SOI, RPM and duration. you don't need railpressure to calculate EOI from those.

5th post in this topic talks about my calculations
https://www.ecuedit.com/peugeot-207-1-6hdi90-edc16c34-379395-t4689/page20

if you do it from diagnostic values (output) - in that case this is correct statement,
and that way all modifications afterwards are done from output from actual driving areas...you need to log duration time, rpm and soi...

if you want to do it from exact data from map - to cover all possible driving areas, you defenetly need rail pressure, because duration map is based on axis with rail actual pressure and injected qty ammount...without rail pressure you do not have data about injection duraton time at certain rail pressure. Thats a fact. You can also take a look non finished project here of how it goes: http://www.dtiming.com

by **ecuedit** » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:56 am

jurebv wrote:
ecuedit wrote:without proper sensorics you can only adjust SOI based on which EOI you think you wish to have...and to do that you need to recalculate duration time into degrees over rail pressure to get duration time in degrees and based on soi to calulate eoi, and taking into account different axis values for rpm and fuel....

to know if you did a good job you need to measure pressure inside the cylinder to monitor combustion process and also to monitor how pressure drops when exhaust valves open...and so on...than you know if your soi related to rpm, amount of fuel, injection duration, rail and bunch of other things...is good or bad (by the way we do that... ;) )

@ ecuedit

Mind taking a look? Discussion about conversion from uS to CR°

please be specific, look at the post above...

by **ecuedit** » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:01 am

MothaHDI wrote:Daamn i never had a good thread like this :D

So, u used the car for 100km's and averything "looks" fine. Ecuedit, i did exactly what you say. I build an app to help me with automatic interpolation and it build the tables automaticly and in real time. When i have time i can show it!!

So, to resume: The car that i'm using is my daily drive car, but either way i'm going to use it for testing.

-I'm going to install an EGT sensor and monitor the temps! What values should i look for? Should i compare the old vs new?
-Smoke? Only when pushing really hard (or bad weather) and it just "brease". My afr is low but still no smoke coming out.
-Pressure inside the Cilinders? Mhmm i need to buy thoose gauges (usualy for petrol isnt?) and put it where? I dont have spark plugs to remove :D;
-And i'm going to datalog when i have time;

I'll leave the file below of my "stage 2" to anyone who want to look around.

you are on very good way to understand complete system (ecu side and output side), you can help yourself with our project that is still not finished: www.dtiming.com

for all others:
1. one are calculations based on output
2. second thing is calculation on ecu side to get some output - and here is the good place to start calculations and you will know what output you will get before you make a log...

by **jtdpow** » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:17 am

on some ecus the lambda value its not realistic, with the true of datalogs in somecases i put in lambda maps afr of 15 and in logs afr goes to 16,16-5,tune soi properly is a pain in the ass but you cant find much difference in 1 or 2 degree more or less,in my car,( common rail engine) i use 0 degrees,1 atdc,4 atdc and 5 atdc,and no diference on dyno in terms of performance only difference i feel its with 4 atdc the car seems to rev a bit faster

by **sparco** » Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:53 pm

Ah now I see what you meant ecuedit and you're correct to look at railpressure maps in the mapping stage before you get logs.
Only problem you are forgetting is fueldensity.
I have seen fueltemperatures up to 85ºC on sustained loads, at which the mg/stroke of fuel would change quite a bit for a given volume compared to 60ºC (also the the reason why duration maps are in mm3, in case anyone wonders)...
Thats why I finetune SOI mostly after logging, takes out some error margin.

There are logging tools that include a cilinder pressure probe that you install in the glowplug hole. Some VAG diesels (and possibly others too) have one of the glowplugs with incorporated pressure sensor that give feedback to the ecu for adaptation.
The logging tool is quite expensive to get anyways and like I said, exhaust manifold pressure, exhaust gas temperature and visible indications of smoke can give you the same indication, it's just less refined.
But thats how it was done for many years, before the pressure probes became available.

by **ecuedit** » Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:30 pm

sparco wrote:Ah now I see what you meant ecuedit and you're correct to look at railpressure maps in the mapping stage before you get logs.
Only problem you are forgetting is fueldensity.
I have seen fueltemperatures up to 85ºC on sustained loads, at which the mg/stroke of fuel would change quite a bit for a given volume compared to 60ºC (also the the reason why duration maps are in mm3, in case anyone wonders)...
Thats why I finetune SOI mostly after logging, takes out some error margin.

There are logging tools that include a cilinder pressure probe that you install in the glowplug hole. Some VAG diesels (and possibly others too) have one of the glowplugs with incorporated pressure sensor that give feedback to the ecu for adaptation.
The logging tool is quite expensive to get anyways and like I said, exhaust manifold pressure, exhaust gas temperature and visible indications of smoke can give you the same indication, it's just less refined.
But thats how it was done for many years, before the pressure probes became available.

Nothing is forgotten. We do stuff in laboratory with sensors and equipment 1000x more accurate than sensors in engine. Running engines with other control units, also totally thermodynamically separated cylinders...

by **sparco** » Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:55 pm

Thats all very nice, but you didnt mention it in your previous post. So you did forget to mention its importance.

All the rest doesnt really matter anyways unless you have acces or enough cash, which for the home tuner/starter just isnt feasable, nor will it lucrative.

by **ecuedit** » Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:02 pm

i can not agree with your statemet as nobody asked. there is much much more than that, lots of thing is not mentioned
that it could be, question is just how deep you wish to go...In OEM ecus fuel temperature is already taken into account
with bunch of correction maps that affect SOI and other maps - in different ecus differently.

by **max31603@rambler.ru** » Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:43 pm

MothaHDI wrote:Hi! So today i'm trying to calibrate the injectors for a stage 2 and i did an app to help me do it! The app does the calculations in real time so its super helpfull for newbies like me :lol:

Can anyone check and help me improve my maps?

Changes:

SOI:- Since the target is 80mm3, i changed the axis of soi to 60 and 80 (55 before);
- Used the app to match the SOI with EOI until 10º ATDC;
- I saw that i need to much SOI , so what i need to do? Decrease Duration? Or increase rail pressure?

SoiMOD.png

Duration:
-My axis goes to 120mm3 so i didnt change anything;
-Converted to degrees and interpolated the axis;
remember the map is more limited soi !!

DurationMOD.png

Rail Pressure: 1400bar ;

EOI:
- i tried not to pass the 10 degrees atdc because of egts and smoke;

EOIMOD.png

Note: This is only i prototype, my car isnt ready for this but will be soon :twisted:

Car: Peugeot 406 2.0 HDi RHY, intercooled, MBC and well maintained;

by **casianoros** » Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:10 pm

Very good topic thanks for the information on SOI and Rail Pressure, I had run with stock Soi and Rail pressure until 70mm3 and that was it max value before smoke :roll: :roll: