Hi folks.

I have no previous experience of "mapping" an ECU. I had a mispent youth being preoccupied with SU carburettors and dirty points, so although I understand the principles of tuning and "mapping", I have no idea what software or hardware is needed nowadays. I do hope you will forgive some very basic questions that follow and that someone will kindly point me in the right direction.

1) Take a range of vehicles with the same Lump... Audi A4, Seat Exeo, Skoda Superb, VW Passat. All can be fitted with a 2.0 TDI 140/170 HP engine, with or without a DPF. Am I right in thinking these are all basically the same engine but with different MAPs in their ECUs? Would they all have a common ECU with different software, or are there some other subtle differences?

2) Assuming they are all the same, is it fairly easy to remap the ECU for an Audi A4 2.0 TDI 140 to perform the same as the 170 HP version?

3) What PC software and hardware would I need and where can I purchase / download?

4) Where would I obtain the correct MAP? Obviously plenty of tuning companies offer this kind of upgrade, so I also assume the maps are readily available without having to put the vehicle on a Dyno?

5) If I wished to remove the DPF, can the same software be used to turn off the DPF sensing feature in the ECU to prevent it from showing a 'fault' and switching into 'limp' mode?

6) Does the ECU also select or enable other vehicle options / features such as the Audi "coming home" light system, or is there more to it than that?

7) I realise that some people regard "tuning boxes" as the work of satan... however there are nonetheless some "reputable" firms out there that make products a lot more sophisticated than a simple resistor... e.g. http://www.tuningbox.com/en/tbv/diesel%20cars/audi/Q3%202.0%20TDI/140.htm or http://www.diesel-performance.co.uk/systems_available.php?id=3680. Clearly, these represent a simple 2 minute fix and can also be easily removed in case of warranty.

Can someone give me an objective opinion on whether these advanced tuning boxes should be avoided at all costs, or if they are worth serious consideration as an alternative to mapping?

Many thanks and kind regards,

Andy

I can have a go at trying to answer this but others will be along with more detailed information I think...

1 - It would depend on if or not they actually do use the same ECU or not. Only way to check is to have a look I think. To be honest the same ECU can also be used on cars with other engines too but obviously the software/maps are completely different.

I would not recommend just downloading a bin from a 170bhp car with the same ECU and just uploading it onto a 140bhp car. This won't work as the software part will also be VERY different as well as the maps.

You COULD however use the 170bhp bin to see which maps are different and as long as the 140 bhp car has similar hardware (turbo, intercooler, rail, injectors, etc) use these maps to get the 140 bhp car to 170bhp. Normally it is not just the ECU map thats different, normally the faster car will also have a bigger intercooler or something too....

I dont know much about VW/Skoda/ETC someone else might be able to add to this.

2 - covered above

3 -
WinOLS - for remapping. Costs a lot of money but can be found for free if your willing to spend some time searching the internet.
ECUSafe - removes the DPF/FAP from a lot of ECU bins. Not sure if it works on the cars you listed but its worth a try. http://www.ecuedit.com/ecu-safe-t37

4 - You make your own. Its very hard, have a look around the forums to see... best place to start is get WinOLS, open your bin and try to find some of your maps.

5 - Try using ECU Safe to do this... its quite straight forward. You download your bin, run it through ECU Safe and it gives you a bin with the DPF removed (assuming it works with your car).

6 - On my car (Peugeot) a seperate 'BSI' computer controls all that lot and is interfaced through Peugeots own software (PP2000). I guess audi/vw would be similar, maybe its possible in vagcom but I never tried it...

7 - No idea, looking at the cost of them I would rather pay less for a decent map file, where I can see what changes have been made to my car, and just flash my original file in case of warrenty (also a 2 minute job on most diesel ECUs).

Just remember when reading/writing to the ECU remember two things:

ALWAYS keep a backup safe copy of your ORIGINAL bin just incase you need it one day!

Make sure you write to the ECU with the voltage stable. Most people connect the car battery to a charger or a second battery during the ECU writing procedure.

Also I can't say what software/hardware you need for reading/writing bins without knowing what ECU you have...

bin = the file that you read/write from your ECU

140hp engines use Bosch EDC16.x ECUs & 170hp engines use Siemens PPD1.x ECUs.
The engines construction is almost the same. There are different injectors, turbos, some have DPF filters and some dont.

rlees85 wrote:I can have a go at trying to answer this but others will be along with more detailed information I think...

Great information thanks. It certainly gives me something to go on. Google is my friend and I managed to find a free copy of winOLS. I have *no idea* (yet) what all the maps mean, but I found a file full of *.ols files for many different sorts of engines. Can you confirm if these are copies of the stock manufacturer's maps?

As regards the re-maps, I nearly choked on the phrase "you have to make your own", because that sounds a bit like trial and error. Brand new car, £25K... Hmmm :think: (imagines bits of Turbo flying through the air). I was kinda hoping that these "stage 1" Maps would be fairly common / easily available for most well-known engines.

You did say 'not to copy the 170 map into the 140 unit', because the software would be different... I thought that was the point?? Or are you saying the ECU operating system is also part of the bin file? In which case, is it possible to copy just the maps leaving the OS intact?

Given that the 140 and the 170 units use different ECU hardware, (and therefore completely different software), would the MAP data itself be compatible - e.g. could I simply copy the 170 maps from the Seimens unit into the Bosch 140 unit? (You can see what I'm doing here... I really *don't* want to meddle with maps on my own - I just want to use a map I know will work and not fry the engine in the process).

I'll be perfectly honest... my wife and I want to buy a new car (VaG of some description), as cheaply as possible (i.e. the 140 version - and get the benefit of the lower road tax), and then boost it back up to 170 without either trashing the engine or invalidating the warranty, (or getting fined). :twisted:

Thanks also to RPM Freak for the info on the different ECUs. You mention other mechanical differences - injectors and turbos. Am I right in thinking that to change all the hardware is regarded as a "stage 2" remap? I take it I don't *need* to change all that to take the output of a 140 engine up to 170. Or do I? :eh: If so - is that a definitive list or is there something like a parts or kit list online?

(By the way - loved your signature so much I copied it to my facebook page. My thought for the day!) :lol:

*.OLS files are WinOLS project files and can either be standard or modified. Binaries (maps/bins) can often be found as *.ORI (original, manufacterer) and *.MOD (modified). But at the end of the day these are only extensions and the only way to know for sure that your working with a standard map is to download your own from your car...

Your right, making your own is very hard... some cars might have decent class 1 maps floating around but mostly the files floating around the net arnt very good tunes. The only other option I guess is to pay for a remap but again be careful where from as a lot of places just flash files they found online.

There is software-code/OS in the map files too. There are also calibration maps (specific to certian injectors, turbos, turbo control valves, etc). You could use the maps from the higher powered engine as a reference only IMO. Might be a little tricky now I know they use completely different ECUs.

You might be limited by your hardware if the turbo on the lower power output car is smaller, or the intercooler is smaller. It might be able to make 170 or it might not, hard to say :?

Professional remaps are done like this.

1. Find the Engine Code (engine number contains the engine code)
2. With the engine code you can find info on the parts that are put in your engine (turbo, intercoler, injectors, crankshaft, rods and so on)
3. Look at the specifications and graphs of the parts. What are there limits and how much stress can they take.
4. Look at your ORI file taken from your car (not from your friends car or from a file found on the internet)
5. Looking at the engine parts graphs and your ORI ECU map calculate what is the max power and torque that the engine can produce.
6. Look at original maps with higher power for that type of engine
7. Make some more calculations and ask questions on the forum
8. Make a remap but limit you new power LOWER the the max that the engine parts can take (you need to drive the car for long time)
9. Test drive the car
10. If you are satisfied make a happy face.

Thanks guys,

I can see the benefit of getting a professional to do this. The "calculations" you refer to would be variables for which I have no knowledge and I'm reluctant to experiement.

I wouldn't mind buying a professional map - and then uploading it myself. At least I will know it's done properly. Perhaps there are some companies out there that can provide a remap by email? I would value your recommendations.

When we finally decide on the car, I'll drop back in here and provide any information required.

Kind regards,

Andy

Hi,
we do that here: http://www.editecu.com

Great!

I hope you don't mind, but may I refer you to Question 7 at the top of my post?

7) I realise that some people regard "tuning boxes" as the work of satan... however there are nonetheless some "reputable" firms out there that make products a lot more sophisticated than a simple resistor... e.g. http://www.tuningbox.com/en/tbv/diesel% ... DI/140.htm or http://www.diesel-performance.co.uk/sys ... hp?id=3680. Clearly, these represent a simple 2 minute fix and can also be easily removed in case of warranty.

Can you give me an objective opinion on whether these advanced tuning boxes should be avoided at all costs, or if they are worth serious consideration as an alternative to mapping? I'm sure I know which side of the fence you will sit on, but I'd like to know what makes Mapping better.

Many thanks,

Andy

Hi Andy,

in regards to the two products you linked -

the first one seems to be a rather bog-standard box which is either installed between pump and ECU (diesels) or between IAT sensor and ECU (all cars).

What they do is try and trick the ECU into thinking that either the fuel temperature or IAT is different than what it really is - i.e. for diesels, when the fuel gets hot, it gets less dense - so the ECU has to inject proportionately longer for the same effective IQ. So the box tricks the ECU into thinking the diesel is always hot, so the ECU always injects more (thinking it's doing the right thing because of "hot" fuel) - except for when fuel really gets hot, then it does absolutely zero! Also, you usually get some/lots of smoke this way, because the ECU knows nothing about the extra fuel being injected...so the smoke limiter can't really work, either.

The other trick is with IAT - the colder the intake air, the more oxygen is contained within the same volume of it. More oxygen means you can inject more fuel to keep the same AFR/lambda/smoke - which is what the ECU regulates. So again, the "colder" intake air fools the ECU into injecting more fuel.

Do you see a theme here?

Then the pedal box - that's just wasted money IMO. Spend it on a proper remap instead, your tuner can do the same that box can and waaaaaaaay more (or you can learn yourself). All it does is fool the ECU again ;) In this case, it just changes the signal coming from the accelerator, so you have more effective throttle at the same pedal position. There is no - repeat NO - power gain here, just a loss of resolution and the whole ramp shifted upwards.

Regards